• talleyXIV - November 4, 2013 3:39 p.m.

    This article is ludicrous. We are supposed to accept broken games because they are trying to fix them? No, that's not how it works, we can't just let them release broken games and tell them it's okay to fix it later on. We are paying money to these people and we should get a complete product like we used to. What is even more infuriating is that Dice is already making DLC, finish your damn game before you release something else.
  • Paperthintelevision - November 4, 2013 4:33 p.m.

    I agree with you Talley. It's more like they are taking advantage of the patching and updates to say "oh we'll worry about it later". I play Battlefield 3, mostly in co-op mode with my brother. I have experienced one of the worst and disappointing glitches ever. I would pick up a gun, then switch to it, and it wouldn't fire. I couldn't zoom in, and then I couldn't switch back to my other guns. It ruined the whole level and we had just got past a hard part in which there is no checkpoint afterwards. Should I just brush that off my shoulder? A game that has been out for years and still delivers bugs and glitches that aren't just cosmetic or ignorable. It is unfair to the consumer -- blatantly! I did buy the premium membership for BF4 and BF4 because I like this series. Unfortunately, bugs are something that cannot be avoided in any program and are inevitable. Perhaps they need to ease off on getting the next-gen wave here and work more diligently on pressing out the fabric of it's foundation.
  • Eightboll812 - November 4, 2013 3:07 p.m.

    Did someone get their posts deleted below? Anyway, I just wanted to point out, that while we complain about the devs, it's usually not the actual guys/gals doing the programming that are saying, "yeah, let's rush this out and fix it later." It's the program managers that look at things like being out before the holiday season that make the decisions to push something out that's not ready, often times with the actual devs not liking the decision. I do think that Andy is right about being civil to the hard working people there who are charged with fixing things. But at the same time Andy comes off a little like "that's just the way it is, we should be more tolerant about it," and I don't agree that rushed games is some anomaly. It's becoming more and more frequent. Yes games are more complex, and I usually cut games like Skyrim a little more slack than others because there's almost no way to predict that certain people are going to do certain odd sequences of actions in a dynamic open world game. A fair response to this industry problem is what people have said below...don't buy games on release day. Wait a couple weeks. If enough people do that, it sends a message, far better than ranting on Twitter.
  • Romkslrqusz - November 4, 2013 2:39 p.m.

    Humans sure do love whining about things without truly thinking through what the causes of the issues are :P
  • talleyXIV - November 4, 2013 3:42 p.m.

    That's not really a good excuse for developers. Selling a broken product is selling a broken product. If someone sold you a car without an engine you would be pretty upset, do you think it would be valid for the car dealer to say "We'll add that in soon"? What difference does it make that the problem is with the servers or the code, or etc. The fact of the matter is that a broken game was distributed and people have the right to whine when it is not fixed immediately.
  • Romkslrqusz - November 5, 2013 10:43 a.m.

    The game isn't even broken, I've been able to play just fine. Yes, there are bugs to be squashed, but they aren't completely game breaking. To call the game broken is like whining that your piece of cake is crumbled - childish. This car has an engine. The transmission is just a little touchy sometimes, and it sometimes needs to be restarted, but a mechanic is on his way. The important part is that it does what it is supposed to - turns on and drives. Things simply don't get fixed instantaneously - welcome to the real world, where complex problems require complex solutions that take time to figure out. People would realize this if they had ever spent any amount of time coding anything. But of course we live in a culture of entitlement to instant gratification.
  • TheOnlyKazuki - November 4, 2013 1:08 p.m.

    This is all an expectation issue really. People have the expectation(s) that the games released now, will be great, bug free, and the same experience for every platform. In reality, that cannot be the case. Here are some of the cases that have been brought up against the "dev". Expectation: "My PS1 never had these issues. Back in my day, games had to be error free before being released, not 2 years down the line!" - This comment is completely untrue. PS1 had issues, all the old consoles did. Every wonder why Merle's hair in MGS constantly pushed out of her face? Every wonder why FFVII locked up in a boss fight where Cloud could only Attack? Or wonder how that green shell could have possibly hit you? Errors in game code still existed, even back in time where all the game's code could be written in a book smaller than the Hobbit. Comparing old games to new games is like comparing the Star Trek in 1966 to the Star Trek in 2013. Old game consoles barely had 1 book of code to read and everything was "preprogrammed" to execute in a certain order. Games nowadays have whole entire engines specifically designed for certain parts of the game including physics, AI processes, lighting, rendering, motion control, etc. and all have to work hand in hand with each other. There is so many more things involved in games now then games then. 256 Mb games can't be compared to 15-30 Gb games. Expectation:"Online doesn't work worth anything! I can't even connect to the servers they are down. Why didn't they fix this so this wouldn't happen?!" -Let me ask you, if you were a developer, would you have 10-100 million people lined up to test your product for free? Probably not. Even as a beta test, you would not get that many people. There is no way to have a fully accurate amount of testers to be able to stress test your online servers through a closed Beta or even open beta. Once the game releases, you are going to have a lot of inconsistencies online. That is just how it is, there is no way to be able to predict what is going to happen on every system, every ISP NAT or route to your servers is going to react. What you can do is be attentive to the problems that arise in a smaller, controllable beta test and be prepared to react to what impossible to predict problems will arise once you open the floodgates. Just bear with it for awhile and enjoy what you can. Expectation: "The programmers create patches because they are too lazy or they couldn't reach the deadline. Hastily putting out a games is completely stupid! They shouldn't release it if it isn't ready." - What point do you consider a game "ready"? No bugs? Impossible, different systems and hardware specs make it impossible to go through every bit and length of game code to find the one that doesn't optimize the graphics card of a nVidia 660 to interpret the bit depth of that block to a hexadecimal value and blah blah blah. Do you speak game code? How about 10 different engines/languages worth? If you want an error free game, on every platform, you are going to be waiting way past your expected lifespan for it, and even then that is going to be pretty unlikely that it will ever come true. So the compromise? Get the game out this year or maybe next year and have some bugs that will hopefully be ironed out. Or B. wait until, well, forever, until all the game code has been thoroughly triplechecked, signed by the offices of 10 independent game code checking companies, rubber stamped, and certified by the National Game Integrity Council. Well, which one? Honestly, bugs are bugs. You will have them. Sometimes it seems like the game glitches out a lot, sometimes it is running pretty good. But let me ask you, are you having fun? Are you enjoying the game when it works? All and all, how many things are working right then are not working? If you enjoy the game, then it doesn't matter if it has bugs, it is still being used for what it is supposed to be which is entertainment, not perfection. It doesn't mean you can't get frustrated at times with it, I am just saying take it at face value instead of all of what you hoped it to be. Andy, I appreciated reading your column. I will have my next copy here soon and I will be highly anticipating playing it on my PS4 as well.
  • ParagonT - November 4, 2013 1:26 p.m.

    I'll be blunt, thats not our problem. Thats theirs. Play-test your game and fix the bugs before release. Just because some bugs are apparent in some games doesn't make it okay for it to be in every game released. And this isn't even on the same level as those before us, these are GLARING issues such as save data and multiplayer data being erased. So please, step off the stool of "this is a complex system". Back in the day, you were lucky to have more than ten people working on a single game whos education level most likely stopped at high school, but now that games have grown to multi-million dollar franchises and the quality, and qualifications of staff is expected to go up. These are also hundreds and hundreds of people with more than a college degree and multiple instances of experience working together on a single game, and these games are becoming more profitable and can afford more play testers and coders. If you cannot do it in time, push the release back. If you can't do that, then you should have play-tested it before you decided on that date. So even if all else fails, its their fault for the date. Once again, this is the real world. Where problems and misconceptions always falls back on the ones responsible. Last time I checked, I'm not on the development team and responsible for this. They are. Thats just how it is. So no, no one should act like a cock to them, but they have a right to be frustrated and complain about the game. Thats a fact. There is no argument here about th ones who are responsible, but you dont SELL someone a product THEN explain to them why it isn't finished. If they were so concerned about these bugs instead of their pockets, they would have told everyone how buggy and glitchy the game is. But instead they pushed it out knowing what the hell was in that case and still sold them regardless. So I really don't want to hear the whole "Woe as me" bullshit.
  • TheOnlyKazuki - November 7, 2013 1:57 p.m.

    Is it really a "woe as me" scenario? The thing is, it isn't black and white, and the world is and will never be that way. Granted, I don't like a game not working just as you do, but I have done programming and networking and there is no freaking way your $160,000 invested into Bachelor's degree is going to make you a damn good programmer. I have seen kids with no more than a 6th grade education have more programming skill then some people with degrees. No, it isn't an excuse to be a crappy programmer, but there is sooo much more code and stuff involved with all these systems, it isn't even funny. I expect bugs in programs, just like Windows 7 will throw out error codes when you do certain things, so will games. Its a fact of life that programming is going to have irregularities, and with the hardware being so different with every platform, its not always going to work. I not saying there isn't a problem that the bugs need to be addressed, but at what point is too many bugs making it "unacceptable"? Basically how can you draw a line on that? It's impossible to not have bugs, millions of lines of code working with 5 different engines, working with an ever changing amount of hardware and encodings... Please, if you are able to make it work perfect then I will personally call you God. My comment was not based at defending the developers as it was more aimed at the people playing the game honestly asking "Where do YOU draw the line and why?"
  • ParagonT - November 8, 2013 4:29 a.m.

    " some people with degrees. No, it isn't an excuse to be a crappy programmer, but there is sooo much more code and stuff involved with all these systems, it isn't even funny." Thats really not my problem, and thats not what people pay for. That's theirs. Shouldn't have released it when they did then. "but at what point is too many bugs making it "unacceptable"?" Everybody reacts differently to game bugs and general crappy coding depending on how it affects the players experience. To you a freezing game and one that deletes not only your single player data, but also your multiplayer progression is acceptable. But to me, its not. Which brings me to the point that your generalizing this to be some small bugs when in fact these things literally prevent you to play the game. So I'll iterate my stance once again. I don't pay for mistakes, I don't pay for excuses. If they needed more time, should have pushed the release back again. Couldn't do that, should have thought about that before pinning that date down or started production. I've done code work as well, and I know its not perfect, it can never be. But when you are selling that code to a client and clientele, it better be working and to the best of your ability to the clients expectations or you shouldn't have taken on the job in the first place. Same with nearly any other product or service in the world. I'll take this to a personal place. After changing majors to Graphic Design and Website Production from Computer Science (programming) and IT, the same principles still apply to nearly everything. When I give my services or pieces up for sale, you cannot expect there not to be problems when they receive something that is not what was advertised and said to be true. I would go in more detail, but its a weird system. So yes, its pretty black and white. Just because Jimmy threw a paper wad in class doesn't give Steve the okay to do the same. When you pay for a product, you pay for a functioning one. So yes, I'll repeat, black and white.
  • GOD - November 4, 2013 12:11 p.m.

    Did everyone really forget that this was going to be the same situation as last gen? The next gen versions are going to be the primary versions of the game, and the PS3/360 versions are the ports that just happen to come out first. As Andy points out, the game has to run on 5 different platforms, PC, PS3, PS4, 360, and Xbox One, and each bug that is encountered is likely unique to each version and even if you encounter a similar bug on one platform that's also found on another it likely requires a completely different fix. You can always hold off on your purchase when it comes to games anyways. No one said you have to buy it before every single bug is ironed out, although I do have a criticism of these games and that is simply that they need to have their open betas much earlier before the games release. They aren't giving themselves enough time in that respect to get the online completely fixed. It's like not doing the crash safety tests for a car until a month before it's supposed to hit market. They don't give themselves enough time to account for any unexpected problems. Still, my main point stays the same. This is a massive technical undertaking, the current gen versions aren't even going to be the main versions (see last gens launch), and no one has to buy day one if they're worried about it not being completely perfected. If you were gonna buy the game either way then you just got it early before it was 99% bug free and then get to play it after it's fixed as well.
  • bread_or_decide - November 4, 2013 11:30 a.m.

    Once upon a time games were released with fewer bugs. Now they just rush em out knowing they could just fix it later. That's a really crappy attitude if you ask me.
  • GR_RyanTaljonick - November 4, 2013 12:59 p.m.

    I don't think it's so much that they're being rushed out (some certainly are) as it is that they're just becoming increasingly complex.
  • ParagonT - November 4, 2013 1:03 p.m.

    They're also becoming increasingly profitable and have increased staff and testers.
  • alex-roy-bristol - November 4, 2013 1:44 p.m.

    I agree with you completely on this! As shit gets bigger and better, so do the bugs! Open world games have more bugs than linear ones due to more game, multiplayer over single player due to more things happening. And I also completely agree with not picking on the devs. They work hard as all hell, and people should respect that... Besides, it's not like they're bad people either, they're trying their hardest, and we should all accept that.
  • ParagonT - November 4, 2013 6:54 p.m.

    I would agree with this if they didn't sell it to people first. But they did, they sold the game despite knowing the problems with it. Did they give an announcement to everyone telling them how buggy the game is? No they did not. I would give them respect, but instead of pushing the release back or anything else, they continued forward. That deserves nothing of the sort and they earn every complaint coming to them. Hard to forgive the salesman that told you that this is going to be the best product ever, then once you buy it from him, says "I'm sorry about the bugs, freezing, and deleted data. We'll get to that in a patch thats most likely going to come out when the next generation consoles do". Oh really? Didn't want to mention that before did you? So they get no sympathy. Bugs are not an excuse, I frankly find it a childish retort to why a game is broken. There is a certain threshold that needs to be met before a consumer will legitimately complain about a product, and they went beyond it exponentially.
  • rodyoung - November 4, 2013 10:30 a.m.

    While playing Battlefield 4 on PS3, Recker is driving the boat to shore and he will not get out of the boat to run for cover. I have try every button on my controller (PS3). This is in the Singapore frame. Is there something I need to change on my controller to get him to get out of the boat and run? What do I need to do to get him to run for cover?
  • david-bunch - November 4, 2013 10 a.m.

    Its not even just the bugs, its the bad mechanics. I bet you if diced posted a global accuraccy average across all players it would be half as much as other shooters out this genereation due to the fact that they want all the guns to be weak and hard to controll to drag out the action a little longer and make the game seem more action packed when in reality its a bunch of guys running around with nerf guns missing 80% of the time. If you have supression on you it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to shot someone and if they have supression its literally just 2 guys unloading clips towards eachother, you're better off hip firing under the supression affect. I feel like i have almost no control over my guns compared to other BF games.
  • james-myhre - November 4, 2013 10:07 a.m.

    i actually have noticed an improvement in my shooting in the game im getting alot of clean head shots i like that the guns have a more realistic weight system when im using the kickback
  • BladedFalcon - November 4, 2013 9:24 a.m.

    Andy, I love you, but you're much of a nice guy. In any other industry, if you rushed a car that broke down within 15 minutes of driving it, no one would even think of saying "you should give the manufacturer a break!". If you buy something, you expect it to at least WORK, regardless of whether it's actually what you wanted or if it's good. Heck, games USED to be like this, before DLC, you either shipped a properly functioning game, or else it would be panned by everyone, justifiably so. So no, I don't think DICE deserves a break, just like Firaxis didn't either with the new Sim City, or Bethesda with Skyrim. If you rush out a game in order to meet deadlines and please your corporate superiors, instead of releasing it when it's actually done, then you DESERVE getting tons of shit for it... And actually, the fact that they KEEP doing this more and more says to me that people aren't being hard enough on them. I DO agree with you that people shouldn't be outright ASSHOLES when complaining though. The people that straight out insult or fling threats are actually just undermining the message, so yes, that should stop. But the actual complaints, or just outright refusing to pay a single buck more? that should happen MORE.
  • Desann - November 4, 2013 9:53 a.m.

    Absolutely! There's never a good reason to be insulting or abusive, but neither should we give them any kind of a break for selling a shoddy product. Then we'd be the ones who get abused. It's actually gotten pretty annoying to see that whenever there's a group of people who feel slighted or dissatisfied with anything, the games press in general seems to always rush to the defense of the developers and do their best to dismiss any grievances by saying things like "they're just a vocal minority," "it's not a big deal," and "you need 1) life perspective 2) professional help 3) to be grounded for at least a month." The people who get jobs in the games press are either consciously or subconsciously pressured into maintaining good relationships with their lifeblood game devs, or they're just the sort of people who hate discontent and just have a strong, obsessive-compulsive desire for everyone to be happy and docile, and they try to stamp out the dissonance that crops up when things go wrong simply because it ripples their otherwise-serene ponds. Either way, they need to stop handing out free passes, because that's bad for everyone involved, including the developers.

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