• BladedFalcon - April 3, 2014 10:10 a.m.

    ...So basically, games that let you cheat or play themselves for you, completely defeating the point of the game in the first place. This shit shouldn't be celebrated or applauded. What point is there of playing a game if you can't even be bothered to overcome it by it's own rules? worse, when the game straight up let you skip levels or auto win itself without you doing anything, isn't that just shitty design? How is any of that a good thing?
  • Vonter - April 3, 2014 10:18 a.m.

    I don't know, also scripted events in action games have the same effect. What I disliked in Uncharted, was how automatic climbing was. In contrast I love the limited but badass fighting in the Arkham games. So yeah, it's a juggle on how much control you want to give to the player, I mean not all people can enjoy COD without auto target, or some (like me) can't stand Assassin's Creed multiple game systems (it could be more intuitive IMO).
  • BladedFalcon - April 3, 2014 10:52 a.m.

    I'm not really defending scripted events or on rails gaming design like the uncharted climbing parts, but at the very least those are meant to convey something in the sense of spectacle or story, and most importantly, those events are a small part of the bulk of the gameplay. In uncharted, most of the gameplay is really the shooting, and if you suck at it, sorry, you can't progress until you get better. The game doesn't suddenly make a squad of SWAT operatives appear out of nowhere to wipe out the room for you if you die 10 times, like Mario fucking does >_> Really, i wasn't talking about how much control to give the player... It's more about if you design a part of your game to be solved or beaten a certain way, allowing you to cheat trough it or bypass it because you suck kinda defeats the entire point. Regardless of the game or the gameplay.
  • Vonter - April 3, 2014 11:39 a.m.

    If you mean the Super Guide or items in DKC, they're optional, I'll admit is a bit annoying being reminded that you're sucking in a level, but you're not forced to use them. I think that only Mario Kart and Mario Party those kind of things are intrusive. Also a counterexample of your last sentence, at least for me, will be Turok and to a lesser extent GTA. Both those games' cheats add to the experience.
  • BladedFalcon - April 3, 2014 12:30 p.m.

    Even if they are optional, the mere existence of them is a problem. Sure, you're not forced to use them, but you shouldn't even have the option to have them to begin with, either you're good enough to pass the level, or you aren't, given something to aid you in a way that negates requirement of skill cheapens the experience or flat out breaks it. And well, in both of those cases... again, you needed to LOOK for those cheats, neither GTA or Turok went "hey, you're dying too much, want to turn god mode on?". And besides, using cheats when you've already beaten or mastered a game is fine, or when you're using them just for shit and giggles (Which is the case with GTA often). That's totally fine, but if you use them from the get go of the game to complete story missions... Then again, why even bother?
  • pl4y4h - April 3, 2014 7:42 p.m.

    but....but.....think of the kids! (or the casuals, take your pick)
  • BladedFalcon - April 4, 2014 12:21 p.m.

    Again, did NES or even Genesis and SNES games went easy on us when we were kids? No, and we dealt with it just fine, didn't we? As for casuals, they aren't into video games for the long haul anyway, even if you make games super easy and accessible they won't be a recurring customer anyway, (As proven by the people that bought the Wii but didn't really buy games for it regularily) so why bother on them anyway?
  • pl4y4h - April 4, 2014 12:31 p.m.

    Come on man, you know us Americans. We want that instant gratification and don't want to work at all! (please no one take this seriously and/or try to argue political feelings with me)
  • BladedFalcon - April 4, 2014 6:54 p.m.

    ...You say that as a joke, but that is pretty much how you guys look to the rest of the world :P
  • Dadyo238 - April 3, 2014 10:40 a.m.

    While a lot of it could be laziness in design, I'd say that for some people, these kinds of games can be a great experience. If you're someone who is just starting of just isn't good at video games, jumping into something like Dark Souls will be a shitty time for you. As opposed to a game like Dynasty Warriors (which I personally got tired of that series years ago) all you need to do is mash, and you'll be having a great time kicking ass instead of getting your ass kicked. These kind of games I think should be stepping stones to real skill-based games, and so from our perspective they're shitty because we're so used to harder games.
  • BladedFalcon - April 3, 2014 11:03 a.m.

    If you're someone that's starting with videogames, then playing games that allow you cheat trough them or beat them without any real skill is actually counterproductive, because they are not demanding any skill for you, and thus, you're never going to get better at games. I agree that someone just starting or getting the hang at games shouldn't run headlong into complicated stuff like Dark Souls or anything, and that there ARE games that serve as good stepping stones. Games that are simply easier in their design, like little big planet, or focused on an experience, like Journey. But again, making a game taht requires a certain level of skill, and then giving you a tool to just forego going trough that is counterproductive. methinks. ...sides, remember the first Mario games for the NES or even SNES? They weren't the hardest games ever by any means, but they weren't easy, and aside from SECRET warp zones, (Which needed skill ingenuity, or at least foreknowledge to access) there wasn't really anything that allow you to beat or rush trough the game without getting better at it. Did thousands of kids all over the world complain or stop playing? no, they fucking grew balls and got better until they beat the game or quit and moved on. And yet, now, mario games bend over backwards to let you finish the game even if you suck completely at them. Oh, you can't be bothered to recognize and get over a simple pattern of enemies an pits? okay... how about a golden suit that makes you invincible? you're still too stupid and unable to get trough without falling? um... OKAY! how about i just fly you over to the end of the stage! that means you didn't shit, but hey, you "beat" the stage anyway, right? If that isn't extreme coddling, I don't know what is.
  • shawksta - April 3, 2014 11:16 a.m.

    There's a lot of stuff the industry tends to ignore for some reason. This type of handholding tends to go too far. Some of them are justified as it limits a players control and gives them a learning experience when trying something new. Then there's the integrity of giving it to them when they havent earned shit or learned any of it. Honestly your bitching about the Pwing in 3D Land is well justified, i aint gonna stop you. Thank god they took it out in 3D World.
  • gilgamesh310 - April 3, 2014 11:26 a.m.

    It seems developers are just scared shitless of putting out a challenge in most cases. They don't trust that the audience will actually play games that are remotely challenging. It's pretty stupid, as there are a lot of people that enjoy challenging games, even if there are a lot of pussies around as well. The fact that Dark Souls sold over two million copies shows that. The same kind of logic applies to stealth games. Developers are scared to make games that purely involve stealth, so they throw in some action with it for the people who don't want to play it stealthy, yet proclaim that the stealth options are still there for the people who do. It's just fan pandering nonsense.
  • BladedFalcon - April 3, 2014 12:33 p.m.

    Yep, pretty much agreed in all points. It's stupid, it makes no sense, it's misguided and it can also potentially breed a bunch of "gamers" who are used to using cheats or help instead of skill to beat games...And honestly, do we want those kind of shitheads to exist in the first place? So again... why the fuck is this article celebrating games that are doing this?
  • Vonter - April 5, 2014 7:27 a.m.

    I think you subestimate some people or rather I may be overstimating them but... I think if you're into games you're eventually bored by games that are easy on you or you try to attempt the game without cheats, now that you know the ins and outs. Like everything is just a matter of degrees and not be on excess. There are still worse things, like those pay to win methods devs have starting adding to otherwise good games (like the mobile version of Tales of Phantasia) or the pay to cheat DLC that Capcom put for Dead Rising.
  • BladedFalcon - April 5, 2014 11:22 a.m.

    Yes, and how many people do you think when they are bored by a game would go and play it properly rather than just stop plying and move to something else? Again, what reason is there for such things to exist? Cheats that you have to find or earn I'm perfectly fine with, but those that are even shoved down on your throat when you're playing badly that essentially play the game for you? shouldn't exist in the first place.
  • Vonter - April 5, 2014 12:46 p.m.

    Well that's a possibility, but it doesn't contradicts the other side of that statement. I don't know, just for fun I suppose like the Goat simulator, or the flying cars cheat from GTA (they knew that was a fun thing to do). I'm losing you in the last statement, what are does that are shoved down our throats? I at least appreciate that though on M&L: Dream Team because the gyro controls were atrocious, so it was nice been able to have it more palatable. I also don't understand what you mean with find or earn them, do mean mods or like in Banjo Kazooie and the Cheato pages you had to find.
  • gilgamesh310 - April 3, 2014 9:33 a.m.

    Shouldn't Dark Souls be here? I don't think there's any game this get that made me feel like more of a badass when overcoming some of the shit the game throws at you than that.
  • mafyooz - April 3, 2014 9:52 a.m.

    I second this one :-)
  • Dadyo238 - April 3, 2014 10:41 a.m.

    Yeah but the title also includes "(even if you suck)", and if you suck at Dark Souls, all you'll be doing is raging.
  • BladedFalcon - April 3, 2014 12:34 p.m.

    Not necessarily. The game does allow you to summon help to get you trough stages and bosses. If EVEN with summoned help you keep dying, then you simply don't fucking deserve to progress.
  • winner2 - April 3, 2014 10:50 a.m.

    This list is more for games that just cheat a bit for you. In the souls games there are just exploits that you may or may not find by accident, and if you find them by cheating, well that's work on your own part. Dark souls doesn't give a damn if you're bad at timing, you'd best practice up because there's no auto dodge equivalent of cod's auto lock. That's the best way of putting it I think.
  • gilgamesh310 - April 3, 2014 11:19 a.m.

    I think I misunderstood the point of the list a bit. I figured that you being vulnerable and easily beaten and hence shit at Dark Souls but feeling like a badass when you overcome obstacles fulfilled the criteria.
  • winner2 - April 3, 2014 1:47 p.m.

    Yeah, I will say that there are few feelings in this world on par with the satisfaction of victory in the souls series, but it's just not the kind of game for this list.
  • shawksta - April 3, 2014 9:26 a.m.

    Dont know if it matches the article given its badass and even if you suck, but goddamn it The Wonderful 101 is the best game that makes ME the player feel like a goddamn superhero.
  • mafyooz - April 3, 2014 7:33 a.m.

    I thought Dynasty Warriors was set in China, or is that just the game on the Vita (which is the only one I've played).
  • jpic89 - April 3, 2014 9:33 a.m.

    It is. All of them are based on Romance of the Three Kingdoms, a classic Chinese literature about the early ages of China. The authors here aren't the best at fact checking.

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