Grand Theft Auto IV: three points of view

Christian: OK, we have two topics here. One: what's a "meaningful" change? I'm not talking about this purely from a plot perspective, though you know that's my bag. I'm talking about what GTA IV offers over its predecessors - and guys smoking as you run past them with a sawed-off shotgun isn't it.

What do we see in this trailer that hints at a way forward for the series? I love this idea that the "city is a character" but I wonder if you're not just repeating something you heard from Rockstar. It sounds like it means something, but what does it really offer us?

What little story Crackdown had was insultingly stupid; it as also absolutely irrelevant to the game, which was intensely fun. When you look at Crackdown, it's very complex, but playing it is actually pretty simple. GTA's always been very complex in both its construction and gameplay. As we move into the next generation and the game gets even more elaborate, where does it go? Does the trailer offer any clues? What does that mean to gamers?

Mikel: No, I'm not repeating something I heard from Rockstar. Jeez, give me a little credit. If anything, I'm regurgitating something I read in a review of L.A. Story years ago. But let's not get on a tangent about old films. Instead, let's presume that Rockstar's intent is to make the city a character. My impression, just looking at these trailers, is that it won't inspire quite the same power trip that previous GTAsdid.

This version of Liberty is huge, filthy and a little scary; it looks like something that could exist independent of you, rather than just a private sandbox in which you can blow up cars. You can't own or destroy this Liberty like you could San Andreas or Vice City; you're a newcomer of little importance, and you're going to have to try hard if you're going to make any sort of mark on it. It's more daunting; I look at this version of the city, with its giant scale and its high level of detail, and I feel like I might actually have to take it seriously. I never felt like that playing, say, Saints Row or Crackdown.

Really, though, that's just my impression after watching a one-minute trailer, so it's entirely possible I'm talking out my ass here. And of course, it'll be impossible to know its actual impact on the player until we actually play it; if wandering around in Broker feels like wandering around a prettified cardboard façade of a city, it won't make any difference at all once you get used to it. But if it can continually surprise you, and continually offer new experiences and avenues of exploration and ways to run from the cops, then it has the potential to be very different from what GTA fans are used to.

Then there's what all that will mean for a casual player, like Brett, who might not follow the plot but wants to mess around and cause as much havoc as possible, or just jump cars off roofs. I won't bullshit here; one of the principal draws of GTA has always been to behave like the worst, most violent person imaginable in a realistic (but consequence-free) environment, and this is one hell of a realistic environment. Plus you can climb objects (and presumably buildings) and grab onto speeding vehicles, and while Crackdown has already done stuff like that, I have a feeling GTA will find more versatile uses for it.

Brett: I'm not about to suggest that a cigarette smoking man is going to make the game better, it just might make the atmosphere more believable. Do I think it'll make the game more fun to play? No. For gamers who only like to cause trouble and watch the ants go scurrying about, GTA IV will only deliver on a visual level. Better explosions, lifelike animations, that sort of thing. All the anthropomorphized cities in the world won't make a car jumping over a river any cooler than it already is.

If the story becomes grittier and more literal, it could easily have more "meaning" to the average player. Judging from this and the earlier trailer, that down to earth attitude does appear to have replaced the goofy, eccentric style from before. This could mean no more guiding remote controlled helicopters around buildings or searching for Rampage tokens. On the other hand, it opens the door to more lifelike violence - if you lose the silliness, it all takes on a different tone. Can they keep the visuals and grit on high while still delivering blood and gore on the same level? That's could easily change what kinds of missions and weapons Niko will use.

Christian: OK, we have two topics here. One: what's a "meaningful" change? I'm not talking about this purely from a plot perspective, though you know that's my bag. I'm talking about what GTA IV offers over its predecessors - and guys smoking as you run past them with a sawed-off shotgun isn't it.

What do we see in this trailer that hints at a way forward for the series? I love this idea that the "city is a character" but I wonder if you're not just repeating something you heard from Rockstar. It sounds like it means something, but what does it really offer us?

What little story Crackdown had was insultingly stupid; it as also absolutely irrelevant to the game, which was intensely fun. When you look at Crackdown, it's very complex, but playing it is actually pretty simple. GTA's always been very complex in both its construction and gameplay. As we move into the next generation and the game gets even more elaborate, where does it go? Does the trailer offer any clues? What does that mean to gamers?

Mikel: No, I'm not repeating something I heard from Rockstar. Jeez, give me a little credit. If anything, I'm regurgitating something I read in a review of L.A. Story years ago. But let's not get on a tangent about old films. Instead, let's presume that Rockstar's intent is to make the city a character. My impression, just looking at these trailers, is that it won't inspire quite the same power trip that previous GTAsdid.

This version of Liberty is huge, filthy and a little scary; it looks like something that could exist independent of you, rather than just a private sandbox in which you can blow up cars. You can't own or destroy this Liberty like you could San Andreas or Vice City; you're a newcomer of little importance, and you're going to have to try hard if you're going to make any sort of mark on it. It's more daunting; I look at this version of the city, with its giant scale and its high level of detail, and I feel like I might actually have to take it seriously. I never felt like that playing, say, Saints Row or Crackdown.

Really, though, that's just my impression after watching a one-minute trailer, so it's entirely possible I'm talking out my ass here. And of course, it'll be impossible to know its actual impact on the player until we actually play it; if wandering around in Broker feels like wandering around a prettified cardboard façade of a city, it won't make any difference at all once you get used to it. But if it can continually surprise you, and continually offer new experiences and avenues of exploration and ways to run from the cops, then it has the potential to be very different from what GTA fans are used to.

Then there's what all that will mean for a casual player, like Brett, who might not follow the plot but wants to mess around and cause as much havoc as possible, or just jump cars off roofs. I won't bullshit here; one of the principal draws of GTA has always been to behave like the worst, most violent person imaginable in a realistic (but consequence-free) environment, and this is one hell of a realistic environment. Plus you can climb objects (and presumably buildings) and grab onto speeding vehicles, and while Crackdown has already done stuff like that, I have a feeling GTA will find more versatile uses for it.

Brett: I'm not about to suggest that a cigarette smoking man is going to make the game better, it just might make the atmosphere more believable. Do I think it'll make the game more fun to play? No. For gamers who only like to cause trouble and watch the ants go scurrying about, GTA IV will only deliver on a visual level. Better explosions, lifelike animations, that sort of thing. All the anthropomorphized cities in the world won't make a car jumping over a river any cooler than it already is.

If the story becomes grittier and more literal, it could easily have more "meaning" to the average player. Judging from this and the earlier trailer, that down to earth attitude does appear to have replaced the goofy, eccentric style from before. This could mean no more guiding remote controlled helicopters around buildings or searching for Rampage tokens. On the other hand, it opens the door to more lifelike violence - if you lose the silliness, it all takes on a different tone. Can they keep the visuals and grit on high while still delivering blood and gore on the same level? That's could easily change what kinds of missions and weapons Niko will use.