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  • BladedFalcon - June 13, 2013 11:31 a.m.

    Okay, look, I've talked about this a hundred times before, so I'm going to spare the big speech this time... But regarding used games? Stop fucking assuming that everything works the way you do in your country, stop assuming that gamestop is an ubiquitous entity that exists everywhere, and affects everyone. Not everyone has to deal with gamestop, what's more, a lot of us that live in other countries still can rely on brick and mortar stores to make reasonable and fair trades in which, yes, i actually DO always trade my used games to get NEW and 60 dollar value games over here. (Except that here in Mexico, a game doesn't really cost 60 dollars, but more like 80... So y'know.) I guess that, as always, is too much to ask you fucking privileged U.S. Citizens to take a step back, and think of how things work in other countries, par for the course I suppose. But you guys spoke with such hubris, and in a such a douchebag way, assuming that you knew everything that was going on everywhere, and you obviously don't. You don't like the used games market? fine, that's your decision. But don't you dare to think you know what's best for everybody, specially if none of you have ever have had to live in a country such as Mexico, let alone other countries such as El Salvador or Ukraine. Come here, work for a month for the wages the average person here does, THEN I want to see you talking shit about selling and trading to get extra money.
  • GOD - June 13, 2013 1:11 p.m.

    Take a deep breath. It's implied that they are only talking from an American perspective because they are American journalists who live in America. It's unfair to get mad at them for not discussing how it works in other countries, when the only way to have a comparable amount of insight into other countries would be to live their. They also weren't saying that the used game market going away would be best for everybody. Just like they were saying they don't want all Gamestop employees to just become unemployed. They said that if they had to choose one or the other, they'd choose developers over the used game market and that if the used game market went away (with Gamestop being the biggest factor of that in America) that developers would ultimately benefit. Also even if you hypothetically trade in your games and use that to buy new games 100% of the time, you're still helping to fill the market with copies of games that can be purchased that will lead to no money going to the developers. Just like you said it's harder money wise for people who aren't in America, so think of the developers that don't live in America, like the Metro: Last Light team that worked in a ridiculous environment and with a fraction of the usual budget for games. Now think of how it feels for them when they worked this hard on this game to have someone else, regardless of their place in the world, to buy it used instead of new and give them no compensation for the game they almost literally slaved over.
  • BladedFalcon - June 13, 2013 4:19 p.m.

    Except that when they say "developers". Who they really mean are Publishers. You mention Metro, for example. Think a bit, who do you think sees the direct revenue per copy of the game? The developer of Metro? Or Deep Silver, it's publisher? Do you really think the developers will get paid more if the game sells 4 million copies instead of 3? Do you seriously believe that each of those employees, the coders, the programmers, get a raise for every extra copy they sell? If you say yes to any of these questions, please let me know in which magic world you're living, because I'd love to join you. The fact of the matter, is that whenever we buy a copy, the people that get to see most of the money, isn't the true creative power behind the games. It's the publishers you know, EA, Activision, Square Enix, Ubisoft. And those companies? they have shareholders, they have execs, guys in suits that care nothing but filling their pockets even bigger. In the podcast they said that the game makers didn't live luxuriously, and they're right, they don't, because it's the publishers, the Bobby Kotticks, the Yves Gillemots, that do. If policies meant to kill used games made sure that the money paid for those games really WENT to the developer directly, and not to microsoft, and not to ubisoft, or Activision. Then sure, I could understand that. But that's not how it is, it's not how it works. It publishers that are bloated and need and want more and more outrageous amount of money to keep their execs happy that's fucking up the industry, NOT the used games market. The used games market has existed not for just this medium, but for many others, and it has always worked fine. Being demonized in the way it has been for this industry is nothing but a marketing push that publishers and first party companies have done because they want to control even MORE of their money. So yeah... fat chance for me feeling any sympathy for those.
  • GOD - June 13, 2013 6:23 p.m.

    Even if the developers don't see a cent more from more game sales and that all goes to the publishers, those developers won't have a job after that game unless the publish found that game profitable enough. If I front you the money for a stack of blank CDs and a sound studio because you say you can sell enough CDs to make it worth both our whiles then ok. You get the money from me this time. But when you sell some CDs and then people copy them to their computers and then sell CDs to other people that cuts into my profits. So now I'm out that much money and barely made back what I used. Don't expect me to financially back you again. Whether you like it or not, when you buy a new game you're voting for which developers you want to stay open, and when buy or sell a used game not only are you not supporting that games developers but you're also removing money from the market (and yes the publishers) which would've gone to publish more games. If you buy a used game that is a AAA title with a bloated budget, you don't have the right to criticize them because you're only making it harder for that to be financially feasible for them. No one forced you to buy that game. If I don't have money I don't buy games. I don't buy used either. I'd rather help the system of gaming that I love.
  • BladedFalcon - June 13, 2013 7:10 p.m.

    Again, what part of me buying all the games I play new didn't you understand? I support the industry one way or the other, and again, yes, I trade or sell my games, but that lets me buy games NEW that otherwise I'd never touch. And i'm sorry, I have no use or need or want to play most games I've finished, so why the fuck should I let them waste away in my room unused? It's stupid and I'd rather make use of them by giving me an extra source of income that allows me to play more games. It's kind of tiresome to hear people like you using a "mightier than thou" attitude in this. Specially because, again, this industry has had a used games market for FOREVER, everyone used to do fine before, and IF they handled their business properly, they should be able to do so now. Read below my example concerning Dark Souls if you need a more expanded explanation. Regarding studios that get closed because a publisher couldn't manage their money well? that's the publisher's fault, not ours. Furthermore, those people that get fired in all likelihood can probably just have a better job overall if they start creating their own studio, and publish games digitally or via kickstarter. And THAT way, they'll get all the money they need and deserve. It's what many have done already, and it's honestly for the better of the industry. Lastly, full disclaimer: Yes, if there's eventually a future in which the industry is dominated by developer that self publisher, and the huge corporate publishers are gone? THEN I will be completely fine by going full digital and killing the used game market.
  • GOD - June 13, 2013 8:02 p.m.

    As I said, even if you don't buy used games when you trade in your used, you're adding those games into the used market for others to buy. You act like the games industry will be completely unaffected, but think of what happened to the brick and mortar record stores that now no longer exist. Just because an industry still exists and grows doesn't mean it's not being hurt. I'm not acting "mightier than thou" I'm just saying you have a choice. This isn't essential to your living and you do have the luxury of waiting or choosing to purchase games that will give you more playtime for your money. Maybe one day stores will let you retire a game to be recycled and give you credit towards new games, while not adding that copy to the used market but right now it's not that way. The used market hurts developers. Don't get angry at them for not knowing how the market is in Mexico, unless you accept that a developer deserves to get mad at you for acting like you know how much of a loss their content can take and have it still be ok for them.
  • GOD - June 13, 2013 8:41 p.m.

    The used game market for gamers is a luxury, for Gamestop employees it's part of their job although they could work at any retail outlet doing relatively the same, but for game developers the used game market is a constant trial that interferes with their lively-hood. Also consider that if the used game market was smaller or didn't exist, new game prices wouldn't have to be as high. A new game is $60 because it's budget is was X amount of dollars and the company expects X amount of people to buy it new. If the number of people who bought it new was higher than to reach the same amount of profit the price per game could be lower. It's like the ridiculous costs for health care in America. Because some people can't afford certain medical care but the doctor can't turn them away, the price to see a doctor for those who can pay is outrageous since the doctor needs to recover the lost revenue from those who didn't pay for their treament. I had some minor work done on two toes where the doctor saw me for maybe 30 minutes, and only once, yet the bill was ten times more than whatever your highest guess would've been. The main difference though is that that is medicine so turning people away is a morality issue. With games your justifying your way of doing things by acting like whatever happens it's either the publishers fault if something goes wrong or the publisher is already making enough money because clearly all publishers are just individuals without any financial concerns, families, employees, etc. that are completely unaffected by any monetary losses.
  • ChaoticGenius - June 13, 2013 9:10 p.m.

    First of all, the used market is NOT a luxury it is a RIGHT that not only happens on this industry but on MANY others and has been for MANY MANY years. Second, you and I both know that prices of retail games will NEVER go down. and Third, you are acting as if people ONLY used the used game market to buy games, and with THAT i do not agree, but im sure that only very few people actually do that, like BladedFalcon and I are saying, we use the used game market but we also support the industry by buying new games from time to time AND by supporting indies through kickstarters and just buying their games in general.
  • GOD - June 13, 2013 9:24 p.m.

    I didn't say the used game market was a luxury. I said buying "a new game" was a luxury, and buying any game for that matter is a luxury. I never said the used game market was a luxury though. Why can't the price of retail games go down? They obviously won't right now because the used game market is as strong as ever, but it most certainly could. The price of a PS3 at launch was $599. The price of a PS4 at launch will be $399. Clearly they plan to make their money by selling more consoles at a much lower price this time, because selling at a higher price meant much lower sales numbers, so much so that it became evident that the price was too high. The used game market is a big influence on new retail copies. If you consider the Online Pass scenario in reverse, increased used game sales would mean lower prices for those who buy new because the companies only went out of their way on the online passes because of how much they were losing on used games. What does it matter what people use the used game market for? Say you sold your games to get enough money to barely make your rent that week. Yes it was obviously the smart thing for you to do in that situation, but if one it still hurt the industry regardless of what's going on in your life, and two maybe it wasn't the best idea to put so much into games in the first place if you're so strapped for cash. Games are an expensive hobby, so unfortunately if you can't afford as many games maybe you shouldn't buy as many (not speaking to you specifically, I'm using you in a general sense). Sure you can sell your old ones to get around the costs but that's when you're working around the system to fuel your own DESIRES, but not you're not doing it out of necessity.
  • ChaoticGenius - June 13, 2013 10:03 p.m.

    Yes, buying new games is a luxury but sometimes it ALMOST feels like a necessity, at least for me and what is going on in my life. And the prices of retail games can't go down simply because MOST publishers won't allow it to, did you read about the statement that Cliffy B made? And again, i dont contribute to the used game market by selling games, I always wait until I have enough money to buy it without having to do that.. Yes games are expensive but PC gaming and used games make it more affordable to most of us and therefore the market HAS to exist, and I feel like we are going around in circles because we both keep stating this but yes, developers should make money off of used games, as long as the prices stay low.
  • GOD - June 13, 2013 10:18 p.m.

    Hobbies are luxuries. Temptations exist in the world, and they are called temptations for a reason. Prices of retail games can go down, but there is no precedent right now that would cause such a thing. Don't you think that if MS said back during their original conference that along with used game restrictions, new games for Xbox one that would've cost $60 would only cost $50 that people would have reacted a lot more optimistically? MS could have done that, but as it's clear by the rest of their recent business plans they lack any sense of consumer perspective. Selling your games contributes to the used game market. The games you sell are then able to be purchased by people as used games. Meaning lowered sales of new games. This isn't even an opinion it's an obvious fact. Obviously everyone has their reasons for buying used games or selling their own games, but it doesn't change the fact, the indisputable fact, that every used game sale or purchase leads to less money for game developers. And this is even true if the game developers get paid a fixed rate, because the sales of the games still determine the budget and freedom for future games, and ultimately the likelihood that they'll have a job when it comes time for the next game. And publishers need money too. Publishers are companies with employees and without publishers thriving then we can't have thriving game development. Just like Xbox One's mandatory online check in system isn't feasible for everyone, online kickstarters aren't a feasible means to publish every game, and if that was the only system we had, I highly doubt we'd have anything near the quantity and quality of AAA games that you see today. Publishers are like bankers. They may be an easy target for people when it's an issue of money, but they are essential for the money to flow in vast quantities that it does to the companies that need it for their huge games that people love so much.
  • ChaoticGenius - June 14, 2013 10:59 a.m.

    It is obvious that we clearly have different points of view on the subject, and this conversation will not convince either of us that the other one is correct. So let us just agree to disagree and leave it at that
  • LordCmdrStryker - June 14, 2013 7:54 a.m.

    You are absolutely correct, brother: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine "The first-sale doctrine creates a basic exception to the copyright holder's distribution right. Once the work is lawfully sold or even transferred gratuitously, the copyright owner's interest in the material object in which the copyrighted work is embodied is exhausted. The owner of the material object can then dispose of it as he sees fit. Thus, one who buys a copy of a book is entitled to resell it, rent it, give it away, or destroy it." Seems to me that a lot of video game publishers want to have their cake and eat it, too.
  • GOD - June 14, 2013 10:37 a.m.

    The discussion was never about the legality of selling a used game. Obviously it's legal and completely within everyone's rights. That doesn't mean it's healthy for the industry though. Yes, a lot of video game publishers would like to publish their games and stay in business too. Just like people who buy and sell used games want to play lots of new games but also not have to pay the publisher for new games too.
  • ChaoticGenius - June 13, 2013 8:53 p.m.

    True, games are not essential for living but I don't know how old you are but as a college student, games are one of my few stress relievers from being in many organizations, keeping my grades high, and just trying to stand out to go into professional school. I do not know whether you buy your own games or have a stable job or not but I have to pay for many things, the biggest being tuition, which is not cheap, so sometimes the most financially responsible decision for me, and others like myself, is to buy used games. And again, that does not mean i do not buy new games because i do, but again, there are times that used games are my only available option. Furthermore, like I told Cooper, I would definitely be OK, and would even gladly support a system in which used games stayed at their low price ($25 or less) but that developers still got money off of it.
  • GOD - June 13, 2013 9:08 p.m.

    I'm in college, I have a job, and I decided that the most fiscally smart decision was to go to a local university and save as much money as possible while still getting my education. That way rather than being drowned in student loans I'd have enough money to use part of my checks on luxury like buying a new game. Whenever in my life that I haven't had enough money to buy something new, I saved my money until I did have enough to get the new thing I wanted. And I know tuition is not cheap. Why? Because so many students get financial aid. At my university around 70% of students receive some form of financial aid, and 80% of those people have it paid in full. Just another example of how people buying used games pass the buck paying for supporting the developers onto those who buy them new. And even when you only sell your games and buy new, you're still contributing to the used game market by providing the copies for people to buy instead of a new one which leads to the developer being cut out. Microsoft was kind of smart in the sense of curbing the used market, but their implementation was terrible. A system where new game prices go down, and games have a chip in them that just has to be reactivated with either an online purchase which overrides the previous usage of that disc, or the same fee paid at a brick and mortar store for them to then reactivate the disc for you would have been far superior. It would be like the current set up with the only difference being that trading a game with another person would mean they'd have to go to the store and pay that small fee online or physically, or when a game was traded in as gamestop that the store would have to pay that fee before reselling the game as a working copy. Keep in mind this is something I cooked up in five minutes. I'm sure a team of tech experts in the industry could come up with something even more feasible and fair.
  • ChaoticGenius - June 13, 2013 9:20 p.m.

    The first thing I have to say is that I, personally, never said that I sell my games back, when I buy games, I keep them. And it is true that you can just wait to get something you really want, but for example if you have $25 RIGHT NOW and the used copy is $20 but the new copy is $30-$35, idk about you but i would definitely be tempted to buy the used one, because that means that I would be able to play the game NOW instead of a month or 2 from now. And well, like I told you and Cooper, if it helps the developers and the prices stay as low as they are now for used games I would be definitely OK with that.
  • BladedFalcon - June 14, 2013 12:19 p.m.

    Using college as an analogy here makes absolutely zero sense. Also, you're implying that tuition isn't cheap because of those that don't pay? that's stupid, and goes to show you really don't know how economy works. So many people in your country get financial aid because that's your economy works, not because it has to be that way. Definitely isn't the way things work over here in Mexico, and sure as shit it's not how it work in many other places, and yet college is ALWAYS expensive, no matter where you are. Also, another reason why your analogy is crap, is because you're equating trading or selling games to loaning... which again, makes zero fucking sense. Loaning is pretty much pledging to pay eventually for something without actually paying for it yet, spending money you don't have. Selling and trading games is getting an extra revenue for something you bought, you're getting physical, actual money for that. And yes, you want something expensive? save or earn enough money till you get enough to buy what you want. That is EXACTLY what I do, I save for what I want, and I also sell what I no longer use to get more stuff I want or need. Or are you going to tell me that's wrong? If I own something I no longer need or use whatsoever, am i not entitled to sell it?
  • BladedFalcon - June 14, 2013 12:07 p.m.

    I don't act like the industry is completely unaffected. Because of course it's affected, everything affects. But is it the cancer or profit that Publishers love to chant every single time they can? absolutely not. You need to see reality and realize that in every single business, there will always be "leaks" or people doing things you'd rather they'd not do that don't benefit your business. The trick is to learn how to THRIVE despite those leaks, which the industry has done just fine until this generation. Also, why the hell should I wait and not make use of what I've bought and earned? just because you don't like it? fuck that :P Anyway, I don't usually like to do this, but this article was just posted, and pretty much reflects my stance completely on the issue. Read it if you like, you might learn a thing or two. http://www.destructoid.com/used-games-and-aaa-games-are-incompatible-good--256227.phtml
  • GOD - June 14, 2013 12:31 p.m.

    In his own TL;DR he pretty much said F publishers and AAA games, as they can rot and die while I continue to buy them used anyways. It's not the used game markets fault that publishers find themselves millions of dollars over budget. He tries to point out how the used game market couldn't possibly be enough to damage the publishers and AAA games and that it's their own excess that's the problem, yet Gamestop's most profitable product is used games. They make over a billion in profits (not sales, profits) on used games from their over two billion in used games sales each year. That's literally billions of dollars that isn't going to anyone who has any hand in making or producing those games. If you think that those billions of dollars wouldn't make a huge impact if put into the industry then I think you need to count the zeros in a billion. http://www.1up.com/news/gamestop-report-reveals-profit-margins Keep in mind this is an older article from a few years ago, yet shows Gamestop's used market profits going up by about $200 million a year and used game sales going up by about $400 million a year.
  • GR_TomMagrino - June 13, 2013 3:49 p.m.

    Well, I'm in LA right now. I figure if I start walking after the show floor closes for the day, I can be in Mexico by Sunday. I'll then erect a shanty in Tijuana, find employment as a cab driver, piggy-back electricity off the local goat seller's setup, plug in my Xbox 360, and then just start playing games. Expect to hear from me in a month on how all of that's going!
  • BladedFalcon - June 13, 2013 4:24 p.m.

    ...Heh, Good luck finding any place that will let you build a shanty anywhere near their property, even among those that already live in shanties, those fellows are territorial as fuck, believe you me :P If you DO go and do that, be sure to take pictures and then make an article about it just like you did for your trip to China! XD
  • PlainLikeVanilla - June 13, 2013 10:38 a.m.

    Did Henry even have a mic for this? I could barely hear him. Also stop interrupting each other, it's really annoying when I'm trying to hear about a game and then a side conversation is taking place over the top. Also publishers love Gamestop. If they didn't want Gamestop they wouldn't constantly be giving exclusives to it. They could kill Gamestop in an instant just by not doing business with them.
  • GOD - June 13, 2013 10:43 a.m.

    They give exclusives to Gamestop to try and tempt people to buy the new version with the exclusive than wait and buy it used. And holy crap that laugh Tom.... just take a deep breath.
  • Squander - June 13, 2013 11:23 a.m.

    let the boys have their fun, buddy! :D otherwise we wouldnt have such hilarious moments like this! But you are right, Henry was incredibly hard to listen to - I also siggest to switch of the background music which sometimes distracts as well
  • GR_TomMagrino - June 13, 2013 3:44 p.m.

    Yeah, I fucked up his mic check. Road equipment, etc.
  • ChaoticGenius - June 13, 2013 10:31 a.m.

    Guys I understand that used games do not help developers and that is a bad thing but you guys have to also understand that, sometimes, we just don't have the money to buy a full priced copy. I mean, I do buy new games, of course, when i have the money, but most of the time I don't so if I only bought new games I would only buy 2-3 a year. And when i don't have money I really don't, I'm not one of those people that buys it used for $5 or $10 or even $15 less than the $60 price, I usually buy them when they are $25 or less. I understand that is my selfish desire but as a college student with not that much money to spend, especially on videogames, it sometimes is the only way i get to enjoy the product. What i do believe would be a great solution would be to keep used games at the same price as they are now but give some of that used game money purchase to developers, idk how but it should definitely be a thing. Furthermore, that is the main reason why i started doing PC gaming, PC games are extremely cheap, i usually buy games for no more than $15 on PC, why? because I am actually able to afford that and not that $40 price of a new console copy. However, I cannot just play PC because some games are exclusive to consoles, and that is where used games prices come in. And again this is just me, but I bet this is why many people, myself included, are mad at xbox for restricting used games, sometimes we just don't have the money.
  • GR HollanderCooper - June 13, 2013 10:49 a.m.

    If you don't have the money to buy something, you don't... have the money to buy something. That's how this thing works.
  • ChaoticGenius - June 13, 2013 10:57 a.m.

    I understand, but like i said, used games give us the opportunity to enjoy that product. And like i said, if there was a way for developers to make money on used games I would be totally OK with that, and would even gladly accept it. But getting rid of used games is just NOT the answer.

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