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  • cian-wright - July 11, 2014 12:07 a.m.

    Oops, I meant "false shepherd". Makes no difference though.
  • cian-wright - July 10, 2014 11:26 p.m.

    Some spoilers. It has been mentioned that the significance of Bioshock and Infinite's opening: Jack/Booker with their box and task. However, do not forget Bioshock 2's opening where Eleanor gives her big daddy a doll as a gift. This is reversed in effect by Booker giving Elizabeth a gift (broach). There is also a significance between their endings which I did not mention in my previous post, that a little sister gives Eleanor a big daddy doll, to which she drops into the ocean as a symbol of both saying goodbye to Delta, and to rapture. Infinite, of course, echos this, with Elizabeth and the alternate Elizabeth's personally submerging Booker into water, saying goodbye to him, and to Columbia.
  • cian-wright - July 10, 2014 11:20 p.m.

    It seems to be that only parallels are drawn between Bioshock, and Bioshock Infinite. Bioshock 2 has it's share of parallels too which I found very interesting playing through again. Some spoilers. For instance, there is a striking parallel between Delta and Bookers search and determination to find a girl - someone special and somehow connected. Furthermore, in both instances, the girls were given up by means of manipulation; with delta being commanded to kill himself, and Booker through clearing a debt. Both are brought "back" to take the girl away from their dire situation. It is no coincidence that they have similar names; Eleanor and Elizabeth. Both are strong, powerful young women. Interestingly, while Eleanor will later assist Delta directly, Elizabeth will not (physically, at least, although she does assist in other ways). While obviously Delta is Eleanor's Big Daddy, and - to themselves, at least - her father, Booker is of course Elizabeth's father, and acts as her "Big Daddy" by protecting her. We find at both endings, the girls Delta and Booker rescued, subsequently kills them, so that they may be reunited again: delta through extraction so his consciousness becomes a part of Eleanor's, and booker through drowning so he is "reborn" before this whole mess occurred. Another note upon the ending: Bioshock 2 ends with Eleanor and her rescued little sisters surrounding her, looking out to the sun and their future. Infinite, however, ends with Elizabeth and her parallel-universe alternates surrounding Booker, and one-by-one disappearing, ceasing to exist with no future ahead of them. Further, where Comstock - an alternate, knowledgeable Booker - is technically Elizabeth's father who took her away from Booker, Sofia Lamb is Eleanor's mother, who's daughter is "taken" from her. It seems appropriate then, that Comstock is to die, but Lamb is to be saved (granted Delta was a nice Big Daddy). Lastly, both girls were contained in sealed environments, and fooled their "guardians" (Lamb and Comstock) by playing dumb to their situation (with Elizabeth engaging in her activities and Eleanor in a state dreaming), whilst secretly being fully aware of their situation. However, where Eleanor could abuse this situation with the aid of Little Sisters, Elizabeth was helpless. I could go on, but I'll move on to another point. Bioshock 2 introduces the Alpha series Big Daddy's, and through the many recordings Delta finds, it is discovered that these are the consequences of failure to pair bond the original Big Daddy's with little sisters. This caused almost psychotic, territorial monsters. This has similarities to Infinite's Handymen, who have been transformed, and consequently suffer greatly due to this. An obvious similarity therefore is between a typical Big Daddy and Songbird. It occurred to me that there was an abundance of butterfly symbolism and at times, actual butterflies throughout Bioshock 2, usually referencing Eleanor or Lamb as saviours. Infinite, of course, set up Elizabeth to be the saviour, but with songbird. It is a small connection, but it seems to be there. Throughout Delta and Booker's journey, their ears are constantly bombarded with Sofia Lamb and Comstock announcing to the people of, essentially an infiltrator threatening to destroy their utopia. Comstock's favourite quote of Booker being a "false prophet" and subsequently many enemies encountered labelling Booker as the false prophet, is not unique to Infinite. Through Delta's journey, there are constant reminders of the people's "saviour" , and while rescuing the remaining little sisters toward the end of Bioshock 2, I overheard a Brute say something about a "false prophet/saviour" (I apologise I cannot remember which it is, but I suspect the latter) as Delta approaches. Interestingly, whereas Lamb's focus was on rallying the splicer's against Delta to save the saviour, Comstock's priority is with rallying the people against Booker the false prophet. They both have the same consequences (everyone trying to kill you), but with different motivations. Both are rooted in fear of threat of their idyllic dreams, but in a fight or flight situation, it may be argued that Lamb is flight (protect the people's saviour) and Comstock is fight (kill the false prophet). Perhaps there is a notion of a moral lesson in this, where violence and aggression ends with violence and aggression, whereas fear and protection ends with understanding and forgiveness. As it comes to my mind, the significance of the little sisters' vents (hidey holes) are reflected in Elizabeth's tears. They both present the user with a (when Elizabeth can control it) safe escape to somewhere different, yet that is connected to all the other vents/tears...
  • cian-wright - July 11, 2014 12:27 a.m.

    I posted some of this separate before thinking it would be better to stick it all together. Silly. Some spoilers. It has been mentioned that the significance of Bioshock and Infinite's opening: Jack/Booker with their box and task. However, do not forget Bioshock 2's opening where Eleanor gives her big daddy a doll as a gift. This is reversed in effect by Booker giving Elizabeth a gift (broach). There is also a significance between their endings which I did not mention in my previous post, that a little sister gives Eleanor a big daddy doll, to which she drops into the ocean as a symbol of both saying goodbye to Delta, and to rapture. Infinite, of course, echos this, with Elizabeth and the alternate Elizabeth's personally submerging Booker into water, saying goodbye to him, and to Columbia. Oops, I meant "false shepherd". Makes no difference though. It intrigues me how the citizens of Bioshock 2 and Infinite treat their "saviour". In the former, rapture's people view Sofia Lamb as their saviour "she will show us the way" (etc). However, Infinite's saviour is of course Elizabeth. Interestingly, Elizabeth is referred to as their Lamb (i.e. a recording and posters stating the false shepard seeks only to lead our lamb astray). The connection created here is quite a powerful one, as I have already noted the significant connection between Elizabeth and Eleanor, but now we have Elizabeth and Sofia Lamb, suggesting she is, in her way, a conjuration of the two. Alternatively, and more likely considering the different motivational approaches to rallying the people (etc) of Comstock and Lamb, that Comstock believed it would be more powerful that the child is the saviour, whereas with Sofia Lamb, she of course is herself. These two approaches may well come from how they gained their acclaim. Comstock, being the founder and - quite religious - speaker of the people, and Lamb, gaining acclamation from her work and providing the suffering splicers with hope after the fall of Ryan, Fontaine and Atlas (although, we know what's really up there...).
  • Ultimadrago - April 19, 2013 9:48 a.m.

    Another parallel, both Comstock andAndrew almost command the player to kill them. They were men who knew what they wanted even unto death. Andrew physically commands the player to kill him with a golf club "Would you Kindly?" Comstock struggles with Elizabeth knowing that Booker will act. If you look at the carvings on the wall in the room before Comstock's you can see all of the events that have happened in illustrations. The final picture shows Comstock at the fountain, where he is prepared to be slain.
  • CitizenWolfie - April 12, 2013 9:48 a.m.

    Not to mention the fact that both cities contain power struggles between charismatic leaders (Comstock and Ryan - themselves both connected to the player's character) and a revolutionary figure (Fitzroy and Atlas/Fontaine). And slightly more tenuous - Booker Dewitt and Big Daddy have the same initials.
  • venomman01 - April 11, 2013 6:16 p.m.

    The part in Bioshock 2 where it shows Rapture through the eyes of the little sisters.. It's pristine look is somewhat similar to Columbia's. I know the city is more or less being destroyed by the Vox towards the end of the game, but some dlc depicting a Rapture-like run down Columbia, complete with Columbia styled splicers and degraded handymen and patriots would be interesting. I found the juxtaposition of the overall beauty of Columbia with the gruesomeness of the combat (Skyhook executions!) made for an experience unlike anything else. As the developers can draw from any possible theoretical universe for a setting, pretty much anything is possible in terms of DLC. Possibly another protagonist even (Booker is cool, but how a more anti-hero type of character? Morally ambiguous works too I guess though.) I was hoping to see a Songbird Boss fight at the end too.
  • VooDooDevil1369 - April 10, 2013 2:42 p.m.

    I believe that by "dying" by baptism Booker ended the Comstock timeline, but the timeline in which Booker denies the baptism still continues, but since Booker was able to cross and converge into these many timelines, he still retains their memories.
  • StuntzMcKenzy - April 10, 2013 6:09 p.m.

    Thank you for making the ending so much less depressing.
  • FreeSnack - April 10, 2013 7:32 p.m.

    What is still depressing though is that the Elizabeth we knew ceased to exist, so there is only Anna now.
  • Bloodstorm - April 10, 2013 8:03 p.m.

    Hows that depressing?
  • Hobogonigal - April 10, 2013 11:44 p.m.

    I think both Bookers die who went to the baptism (the one who took it and the one who didn't) so everything after that point couldn't happen. But the Booker who didn't even go to the baptism is still alive and able to go on and have a daughter anna... or maybe a son andrew??? I love how this ending can be interpreted in so many ways :)
  • BladedFalcon - April 11, 2013 8:42 a.m.

    ...Why would the booker that denies the baptism be killed? The only thing that needs to be prevented is Comstock "rebirth", there is no cause for elizabeth to drown the bookers that didn't accept the baptism.
  • Person5 - April 11, 2013 11:04 a.m.

    And with Comstock dead, Anna was never taken from Booker, thus the scene after the credits.
  • BladedFalcon - April 11, 2013 11:25 a.m.

    Yep, exactly.
  • CitizenWolfie - April 12, 2013 9:43 a.m.

    But what if there was ANOTHER outcome where Booker chooses to be baptised, is drowned by Elizabeth but survives? Comstock could therefore still be "created." With "infinite" universes, it's definitely possible.
  • BladedFalcon - April 12, 2013 10:44 a.m.

    Actually... it isn't. You're forgetting that the moment that Comstock dies in that universe, a paradox is created, because if Comstock never lives to create Columbia, Elizabeth as we know her in that universe would cease to exist as well. Each time Elizabeth kills Comstock, she effectively kills and erases herself from existence as well. If Booker somehow survived the drowning, Elizabeth would immediately notice thanks to the mere fact that she is still alive, and would finish the job.
  • CitizenWolfie - April 12, 2013 12:52 p.m.

    Well, that clears up a few questions I had about the ending, so thanks for that :) However surely killing Booker in the first place creates a paradox? If Comstock is erased from existence in the future, Anna would never become Elizabeth and so Booker would have neither the means or the motive to prevent Comstock being "born" after the baptism.
  • BladedFalcon - April 12, 2013 2:40 p.m.

    Exactly, the paradox pretty much erases everything that could have happened as soon as the baptized booker dies, it's the action of being drowned that creates the paradox, so everything regarding Columbia and Elizabeth and all that future is erased. But up until Booker is drowned, elizabeth is pretty much there, basically, she exists up until booker is drowned. And well, the vision of multiple Elizabeths leave me to understand that she probably used her many instances to seek all the possible universes in which Booker accepts the baptism, and drown him in all of those, ensuring that only universes in which booker denied the baptism remained.

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