Google+

We Recommend By ZergNet

68 comments

  • CitizenWolfie - March 17, 2012 5:19 a.m.

    Really good article, very much enjoyed it. And I've got to say, I am pretty happy generally with gaming as it is (except DLC but that's another matter). It seems that games have become much more accepted now in mainstream culture. It's no longer a "geeky" thing and so long as games such as Farcry, Portal, Bioshock, LA Noire and Heavy Rain (to name just a few) exist I find it so much easier to justify gaming when defending it against the Thompsons and Titchmarshes of this world. But even for all those great games, you have things like Lollipop Chainsaw come along and I really would have trouble arguing that games have already grown up. It's a good job those sort of games stay relatively unknown as it'd kill any point I could make about gaming being a "respectable" medium. And before I get the fanboys raging, I'm not saying that LC is (or is going to be) a bad game - enjoy whatever you like. I mean that it's sort of like saying British newspaper journalism is serious business when we have big pictures of boobs of the third page.
  • taokaka - March 17, 2012 5:59 a.m.

    Lollipop chainsaw will be a master of narrative, it will single handedly end the argument of whether games are art by making games the only form of art. But in all seriousness LC looks great and I have to disagree with that it's good these sorts of games are unknown, just what exactly do you mean "those sorts of games"?
  • CitizenWolfie - March 17, 2012 9:10 a.m.

    I mean unknown in the sense of having a small fanbase compared to other games. For instance, Vanquish, Shadows of the Damned, No More Heroes, MadWorld are all good games and the people who bought them love them to bits - Those sort of games. They aren't afraid to be a bit crude with a cock joke or two. It's not good that they're unknown in terms of sales, I agree it sucks when good games don't get recognised. However I could shout about "Games as Art" from the rooftops but my argument is fucked if someone brings up the fact that Shadows of the Damned has a character/weapon called Boner. Or even worse... Madworld's Black Baron! I mean in that sense, it's a good job ignorant video game bashers don't know about "those sort of games" as it'd just fan the flames.
  • reach110 - March 17, 2012 11:05 a.m.

    But then again, movies are considered art and yet we have movies that are the videogame equivalent of games like Shadows of The Damned. Namely most of Eddie Murphy's work. As far as I'm concerned, art is about provoking a certain kind of emotion, and several games have achieved this. Shadow of The Colossus, Ocarina of Time, and Mass Effect would all be great arguments for Games as Art. Also smaller games like Minecraft and Limbo. The Games as Art argument can't be killed by bad examples any more than the Movies as Art argument can't be killed by films like Twilight. For every Casablanca there is a Daddy Day Care and for every Heavy Rain there is a Rumble Roses.
  • rainn'sgaydar - March 17, 2012 11:07 a.m.

    If someone brings up games like LC to you, why not just mention the tons and tons of movies that come out every year that just put boobs on the cover to sell tickets? It's pretty much the same thing, in my opinion. There are trashy movies the same as there are trashy games. What I mean is that the existence of those movies don't demean film as an art form, so why should the existence of those games demean games as an art form?
  • shebbymanunited - March 17, 2012 3:54 a.m.

    well said mate, very soild arguments and a keen and insightful look into gaming. great article
  • shawksta - March 17, 2012 12:28 a.m.

    Yes, i highly agree games are much more different and in a different "Age" then they were back then.
  • TheDCSniper - March 16, 2012 10:52 p.m.

    So where's our high art, then? I see our equivalent to The Expendables and Clash of the Titans, but where's our equivalent to The Seventh Seal or 8 1/2? The reason I don't see them is because they don't exist. Sadly, the vast majority of video games still target teenage boys and overgrown children like Andrew Groen who are easily impressed by the pseudo-profundity of games like Bioshock and Heavy Rain. It's the video game equivalent of people who think The Matrix is a deep movie or someone who reads garbage like The Da Vinci Code and think that they're a well read person just because they read anything.
  • Hobogonigal - March 16, 2012 11:26 p.m.

    The Last Guardian, Shenmue, Mass Effect, Metal Gear Solid, Deus Ex, L.A Noire. Sure these games are not poignant novels like Cloudstreet, Atlus Shrugged, the Book Thief etc. but they all contain important themes and mature content which are more meaningful than the usual 'go here, shoot these people, go there, blow that up'. I think the point Groen was making was that developers just need to fine tune games like these so that the themes and gameplay are more linked together and take centre-stage. It is not that games are going to be the same forever or are perfect yet, it is just that games will continue to slowly change the formula until they can do this more effectively. There won't be some sort of videogame renaissance in the next few years I think is his argument. With Bioshock and Heavy Rain, I will agree that whilst the themes are dumbed down slightly by gameplay, they are videogames and in order to reach a wider audience they must act as interactive entertainment. Developers just need to slightly change their methods over time to allow a better integration of these concepts, however these games certainly couldn't be considered as just forms of adolescent media.
  • TheDCSniper - March 17, 2012 12:02 a.m.

    I enjoyed all the games you mentioned (except Shenmue) but I would hardly call them high art. I've never read Cloudstreet, so I'll have to check that out, but Atlas Shrugged and The Book Thief? Are you serious? I don't want to get too political but Ayn Rand gave an interview on television where she came out against altruism! The last 50 pages of that book consist of the main character defending selfishness! As for The Book Thief, that's a children's book. You've proven my point that entertainment is targeting manchildren and teenagers. It's similar to how the film industry seems to have given up on making movies based on or influenced by adult novels and instead chooses to make us a further infantile society by making movies based on Twilight and The Hunger Games. As for your claim that games can't pursue some kind of intellectualism because they have to appeal to a wide audience, I say f*** a wide audience. That's what's wrong with America now. Everything is dumbed down so that the stupidest person in the room won't be left out. If you don't understand certain references in the entertainment you consume, don't cry about it. READ A BOOK ONCE IN A WHILE! Then you might understand things. Films also have to appeal to a wide audience and yet Melancholia and The Skin I Live In still managed to get made last year. It would be nice if the whole world enjoyed smart entertainment, but it's not going to happen. Some things are only going to appeal to a limited audience.
  • taokaka - March 17, 2012 6:33 a.m.

    wait, you enjoyed all the games he mentioned except shenmue, what the hell, is this even possible? seriously, just seriously I think there might be something wrong with you. And the thing wrong with you is your ability to time travel, the last guardian isn't even out yet you've enjoyed it. well balderdash is what I have to say, absolute balderdash. But I don't get it, you want media that says f*** a wider audience yet you bash an example of a book that does just that hence proving your last sentence. Which shows we all have different interests and views and these "intellectual" media have to focus more on one area for a limited group of people and anyone outside that group is going to ignore its relevance like you just have with Atlas shrugged, you wanted a text that went against the normal and there you have it, did you like it? apparently not. This just creates problems within the industry when intellectuals, who usually dispute a lot of matters get a text directed at them then it just creates divides due to some hating it because of its ideals and others loving it. It's just easier to show idiots something shiny and take their money than create a large number of novels, movies, etc directed at a smaller number of people and even then have half of them hate it on top of the less intelligent not getting it. Overall there's more than just two types of people dummies and smarties and you have proven my point perfectly, I could go on but do you have anything else to add?
  • TheDCSniper - March 17, 2012 12:58 p.m.

    Sorry, I was thinking of Shadow of the Colossus, but I very much enjoy Team Ico's work and am sure I will love The Last Guardian. I WISH I had a time machine to play that right now. Oh, and LOL at Atlas Shrugged being an intellectual book. Why don't you go talk about how great it is with all the other intellectuals like Glenn Beck.
  • taokaka - March 17, 2012 8:33 p.m.

    I agree that the last guardian will be awesome, however Atlas Shrugged isn't exactly a book your local McDonalds manager would be reading, granted I doubt any book would be classified as something they would be reading.
  • TheDCSniper - March 17, 2012 midnight

    I enjoyed all the games you mentioned (except Shenmue) but I would hardly call them high art. I've never read Cloudstreet, so I'll have to check that out, but Atlas Shrugged and The Book Thief? Are you serious? I don't want to get too political but Ayn Rand gave an interview on television where she came out against altruism! The last 50 pages of that book consist of the main character defending selfishness! As for The Book Thief, that's a children's book. You've proven my point that entertainment is targeting manchildren and teenagers. It's similar to how the film industry seems to have given up on making movies based on or influenced by adult novels and instead chooses to make us a further infantile society by making movies based on Twilight and The Hunger Games. As for your claim that games can't pursue some kind of intellectualism because they have to appeal to a wide audience, I say f*** a wide audience. That's what's wrong with America now. Everything is dumbed down so that the stupidest person in the room won't be left out. If you don't understand certain references in the entertainment you consume, don't cry about it. READ A BOOK ONCE IN A WHILE! Then you might understand things. Films also have to appeal to a wide audience and yet Melancholia and The Skin I Live In still managed to get made last year. It would be nice if the whole world enjoyed smart entertainment, but it's not going to happen. Some things are only going to appeal to a limited audience.
  • TheDCSniper - March 17, 2012 12:02 a.m.

    I enjoyed all the games you mentioned (except Shenmue) but I would hardly call them high art. I've never read Cloudstreet, so I'll have to check that out, but Atlas Shrugged and The Book Thief? Are you serious? I don't want to get too political but Ayn Rand gave an interview on television where she came out against altruism! The last 50 pages of that book consist of the main character defending selfishness! As for The Book Thief, that's a children's book. You've proven my point that entertainment is targeting manchildren and teenagers. It's similar to how the film industry seems to have given up on making movies based on or influenced by adult novels and instead chooses to make us a further infantile society by making movies based on Twilight and The Hunger Games. As for your claim that games can't pursue some kind of intellectualism because they have to appeal to a wide audience, I say f*** a wide audience. That's what's wrong with America now. Everything is dumbed down so that the stupidest person in the room won't be left out. If you don't understand certain references in the entertainment you consume, don't cry about it. READ A BOOK ONCE IN A WHILE! Then you might understand things. Films also have to appeal to a wide audience and yet Melancholia and The Skin I Live In still managed to get made last year. It would be nice if the whole world enjoyed smart entertainment, but it's not going to happen. Some things are only going to appeal to a limited audience.
  • Redeater - March 17, 2012 7:57 a.m.

    I have to point out that while your posts have coherence and grammar the content is eclipsed by your tasteless handle. "As for The Book Thief, that's a children's book. Are you serious?" Say what you will about Hobogonigal's opinions but I'll respect his view rather than someone who thinks many innocent people being gunned down is funny.
  • reach110 - March 17, 2012 11:08 a.m.

    Redeater gets many points for this comment.
  • Hobogonigal - March 17, 2012 8:23 a.m.

    In no way shape or form is the book thief a children's book. Unless of course a book dealing about the harshness of life under the Nazi regime, including book burnings and deaths. It is considered to be an imaginative and powerful form of English literature. You my sir, quite frankly, are a big tit.
  • TheDCSniper - March 17, 2012 1 p.m.

    I just saw it at Barnes & Noble under the Young Adult (AKA teenager) section, so yeah.
  • Hobogonigal - March 17, 2012 10:34 p.m.

    It is still a poignant book, uses language in an inventive and unique way and whilst the book can be read by teenagers; full understanding and appreciation of the book also stems from an understanding of historical context regarding WW2. Also, it is currently on the Curriculum Council of Western Australia's set list for Literary texts. Along with Shakespeare's works, J.D Sallinger's 'The Catcher in the Rye' etc. Of course before Yr. 12 I read Macbeth in Yr. 9, however obviously this book is not literature, just a simple children's book. Get over yourself, you don't think Atlus Shrugged is a book for intellectuals however it caters for the niche markets which you yourself were arguing for.
  • - March 17, 2012 10:58 a.m.

    Games have High Art as well, but you can't look for them in the mainstream. MGS has no more chance of being high art than any summer film blockbuster. But look at the things experimental indie designers are making, and it's just as poignant and interesting as anything in film. If you're actually willing to say games like Journey and Passage aren't sophistocated pieces of art then I submit you've got an axe to grind against art gaming. From your comments I'm getting the feeling you want to be the guy who shows off in front of the nerds because he reads books. Wake up, there's no intrinsic value to information being printed on a page vs displayed on a movie screen or discovered in a game. Everybody should learn in whatever way they can. If that's from a book, great. If not, just as well.
  • TheDCSniper - March 17, 2012 1:05 p.m.

    I don't know how much book learnin they do where you came from, but it's hardly something to brag about. Reading books is just called being an adult. If you honestly think you can learn as much from a video game as you can from a book, you should probably kill yourself. Let's see you earn a college degree by playing a game.
  • codzprc - March 17, 2012 1:22 a.m.

    I want to read more of you, please comment frequently. It's nice to see someone that draws similar conclusions, and that doesn't hold high regard for "The Expendables".

Showing 41-60 of 68 comments

Join the Discussion
Add a comment (HTML tags are not allowed.)
Characters remaining: 5000

OR…

Connect with Facebook

Log in using Facebook to share comments, games, status update and other activity easily with your Facebook feed.