I'm glad to see so much discussion!

I have downloaded MANY games and I don't feel bad AT ALL! I hate big corporations. If it was a little home owned business I would never think of doing such a thing because me stealing would make a difference to them but it makes No difference to a rich company. They make enough money as it is. STOP COMPLAIING you rich bastards!

I'd never steel from Bungie though :D

personally, the only pirated game i got, was conkers bad fur day, on an emulator,
its basically the samething.

SONGS on the other hand, i pirate all the time, its all the price of 75 cents, and as weird al yankovich, said,
"us music makers really need another diamond encrusteed pool!"

"If at some point you’ve downloaded a pirated copy of a game (or anything else), do you think that what you did was ethical? If yes, why? If no, why did you do it anyway?"

If you are someone who follows the news in the video game industry and you agree with the consequences I'm going to write in my answer to your third question, then yes: It is surly not as un-ethical as, let's say, stealing, but it is certainly hurting people, and unless you really lack the money, you should better buy the game. That said, the reason why I (mostly) buy software is only to a little degree because of ethics and other people. It is mostly for selfish reasons: I try to stay away from piracy because I think it is better for _me_, at least in the long run.

For people who are not much into the gaming industry, I guess piracy is not un-ethical at all. I say this because most people I consider good and honest people are pirating software: My father is a teacher and a very good person, and he made an illegal copy of one of his tom waits records for me when I was a kid. My sister is a doctor. She has a illegal copy of Microsoft Office on her computer, and if I told her that this was illegal (and where she can download OpenOffice for free), she smiled and said "yes, but everyone is doing it". My other sister is a teenager of only 15, and despite her pirating music, I know she is a very good person.

You have to consider that sharing of videos/music/games has been a normal part of peoples life for many generations.
The fact that the new technologies have made media distribution so easy that it is now damaging the industry is a problem, but it does not make people's behavior suddenly more evil. People haven't changed. In fact, they are supposed to use the internet to share and distribute stuff. That's what the internet is good for.


"Is there a difference between copying the property of an individual (like an indie game dev) and copying the property of a large company?"

Well, you mean ethical and for me personally? I would say no. I don't really care if EA makes money or not, and I feel sorry if a small company needs to close down. But the main victims in my eyes are not the owners of the licenses but the gamers who play the games. And gamers are facing the problems of piracy no matter if it happens to evil EA or to some indie company.

Like you, I don't know how many people who pirating games are lost sales. There are no real numbers on that, except for some fantasy numbers made up by desperate people (Crytek: "Every pirate who keeps playing our games is a lost sale"). So maybe EA is not hurt by piracy at all, or maybe they loose billions every year because of it. We don't know. But we do know that the fear of piracy is driving the industry crazy, and us gamers are the ones that have to suffer from this.

"What do you think the long-term implications of wide-scale IP infringement might be?"

What we already see today: The big players move to proprietary DRM systems, like consoles, subscription services and rental services. I do not really think that they do this only because of piracy - Renting games is much more profitable than selling games. Especially if the rental fees are the same price as the purchases, like with Spore. But piracy is certainly the top argument to market the whole DRM stuff, and they would have a hard time to get make this transition without that argument.

Another very important result of piracy is that you cannot compete with the big franchises in price. Let's say a small developer creates a good shooter and sells it for $5 per license. Without piracy, this would be a very challenging offer. With piracy, a price of $0 for game A is not more or less expensive as a price of $0 for game B.

I know this problem from other software markets. There are great free and open source software products that do not get a chance in the market because no one if paying for the proprietary stuff anyway.

I do not think that PC Gaming itself is in any bad shape, by the way. Even if EA and Activision/Blizzard would suddenly disappear - As long as there are people playing on PCs, there will be developers making cool games for them. And there will always be people playing on PCs, since consoles are very restricted in freedom.

PS: Your comment function is broken: If I press the "Add comment" button, nothing happens "goToSubmitComment()" is not executed. Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.0.1) Gecko/2008072820 Firefox/3.0.1

On OS X it works fine: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.0.1) Gecko/2008070206 Firefox/3.0.1

A big part of Hollywood's problem is public perception. The public sees all these musicians, producers, actors, &c. on TV driving ferraris, wearing designer clothes, tossing money around like it grows on trees. So eff them, right? Like they need more money from me! The reality of course is quite a bit more nuanced, but as long as celebrities and other industry types flaunt their wealth while everyone else struggles to scrape by, people are going to feel justified in downloading stuff for free.

"The reality of course is quite a bit more nuanced"

Sorry, I know I'm not helping, but

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/103759/

;)

I personally have downloaded a couple of games, but it's usually old/hard to find games that I couldn't buy somewhere. That's why I am looking forward to Good Old Games so much. It is very rare that I pirate a game that is new, because I really appreciate what developers do, and I want to support that. I also avoid used games when I can afford to, because I know that those don't benefit the developers either. Screw Gamestop!
I also download music, but the difference with that is that if I didn't download it, I almost certainly wouldn't buy it, and that's not true of games for me. Actually, I would say that if I download some music and really like it, I am more likely to purchase that band's music than if I had never listened to it, so piracy in this case is benefitting the music industry. That seems weird, but I just typically don't care enough about music to go buy CD's the same way I do with games.

Ok.
I'll give you my answers to those questions now. BUT They aren't necessarily my whole thought out opinion. Just the first thing that came to mind.

1)
Do I think it was right? Well.

To music, I'm going to have to say I think (technically) it is wrong, but I don't FEEL like I'm doing anything wrong when I download it. I say that because it feels wrong for me to pay for a song that I can listen to on the radio, myspace, ect for free. And it's not like I don't want to support the bands and musicians I "steal" from. I really do want to support them, but I'd rather do that by going to concerts and buying merchandise and such.

To games, I would feel alot differently about if I pirated them. Because games are alot more expensive, and alot more time and work goes into making them.

Also to those talking about pirating games to "try it out" first, well, that's what reviews, screenshots, videos, ect are for. One of the very reason this site exists. I think you'd know enough about a game before buying it to know if you would like it or not. I know I do. And if you don't, then rent it. Simple enough.
(Wait..can you rent PC games?? O_o sorry I'm not a PC gamer.)

2)
No. Why should they be any different? Money doesn't make one any more important than the other.

I won't answer the last question, simply because I don't understand it >.<..
So yeah.

I hope nothing came out wrong.
And I reserve the right to change my opinion!

@Ravenbom

Thanks. And I don't even know who/what candidejester is XP..Actually this was kind of a random name. I was in a jester stage, after The Dark Knight, when I discovered Harley Quinn ^.^ And what's voltaire? O_o *feels stupid*

Also good point about the collecting thing.
I think that's why they started making "special editions". Speaking of special editions, I preordered the special edition of Fallout 3 ^^ I can't wait to display my little vault boy bobblehead : D lol. But see if they put something in EVERY game I don't think it would do much good. What's the point in collecting something that everyone else in the world who bought the game already has. Even if it wasn't for collecting, but simply a toy, Well that would still seem a bit superfluous to me.

YAAARRRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!

Ya know, just to balance out the smart-arse comments.

@CandiedJester
Sorry, for the triple post, but Voltaire was a French philosopher who spoke out for freedom of speech in the mid 1700's

@xaKIRA96

Really? awesome. I must know more!
*runs off to google him*

The problem is that people know how to do it cuz they spend too much time on the computer. ha ha, its that simple. as its been said some where, its probably never going to stop as long as people find a way. any way the only way they can stop piracy is well find a better way to distribute them. I’ve seen people buy games for 71 bucks and then 5 months later give them away for practically nothing, money has no value for some people. BUT FOR SOME PEOPLE IT DOES (counting the developers). So the only solution is wait for you friends to waste their money or well simply stop playing games. I think I’ll do the first one

I've downloaded quite a few games illegally, but none since 1999 or so (except ROMs). I am planning on downloading a cracked version of Spore, WHICH I OWN (Galactic Edition), though, just to avoid all the spyware/online restrictions/etc. As soon as someone, whether EA or some kid in a dorm, lets me do the online content while avoiding using SecuROM, I'll be able to finally install and play Spore, not until.

Whether illicit downloading is ethical depends on the context. If you mean downloading a game recently released to avoid paying money, obviously no. But if the game is rare, no longer available, or was never released in your region, I fail to see how you are violating ethics. I have been willing for years to pay for a legitimate English copy of Dragon Quest VI in the US, for instance, but, since Square-Enix might release it here in late 2009 or in 2010, I'll settle with my downloaded copy until then.

The difference between copying the property of an individual (like an indie game dev) and copying the property of a large company depends on personal relationships and the opinion of the company:
* Won't copy if know the guy or someone in the company
* Won't copy if think company is good
* Will copy if don't know the guy or anyone in the company
* Will copy, possibly just for spite, if know the guy is a jerk or think/know the company is full of jerks

The implications of widespread IP infringement are too complicated for an online comment. If you mean in the area of games, though, it will mean the closure of large development studios and the loss of multi-million dollar games. Oh no, no more movie tie-ins! There will be more small, nimble, creative companies like Introversions and Ironclad Games instead. On the bright side, I would expect more loose copy-protection like that used by Stardock and, to a lesser degree, Valve.

Final point:
* Will copy if no demo available, especially at release date--not just PC games, consoles too.

I play plenty of games, and I follow the industry pretty closely, but I have a hard time identifying with the person who gets outraged at only being allowed 3 installs of a particular game. How many times do you need to install the damn thing? I honestly can't remember the last time I installed a game more than twice, and those few exceptions were probably only because I bought a new computer. As for downloading games without paying for them, I've considered it, but never actually gone through with it. I agree that it's somehow easier to do it with music, but I've stopped doing even that. I just try to put myself in the shoes of the artist who has worked hard to create an intellectual product.

Yeah but the company owns the game, the artists is but a part of the team. The company who funds and makes the profit off of us, I think abuses, with these prices we see every day. If this was really art, it would not depreciate so quickly and outrageously

I don't think we pay too high a price for the games we play. It's an expensive hobby, but it's one we choose to participate in. How can a person justify stealing (or pirating or copying or whatever the hell you want to call it) a game or a song or a movie simply because a corporation is making money from it? That's the case with EVERYTHING we spend money on, from that cereal we eat in the morning to the cars we drive to the clothes we wear to the toothpaste we brush our teeth with! It all comes from being in a capitalist society, and it should be important to everyone to be a responsible member of that society. And by "responsible", I don't just mean paying for the games we play or the songs we listen to, but educating ourselves in the quality of that product! With the ridiculous amount of information available on the internet and in magazines and on TV, there's no excuse for feeling suckered into spending your hard-earned money on a game that ends up being garbage. You can't possibly justify pirating a game because you don't want to waste money on something that isn't the masterpiece you expected it to be.

I think it's pretty funny how many of you are rationalizing your pirating exploits. I downloaded music and games in the past illegally. I have no qualms with the idea that what I did was illegal and there is absolutely no excuse for it.

My favorite one was "If a person wasn't going to buy the game anyways, then it's not really effecting the company".

That may be true in some small way, but the person is still responsible for their own actions. Here's a great analogy:

Murder is illegal. But if I only kill vagrants with no family, friends, job, or possessions, then it's pretty much ok because it's not impacting anyone else. Right?

Wrong. Pirating is illegal. There is no justification for pirating software of any type. Making excuses just so you feel better about what you did doesn't change the fact that the act was against the law.

@ Candiedjester

Obviously selling used games would become illegal anywhere.

Ebay, Pawn shops, etc.

The concept is not that people don't trade and let each other borrow games (because they always will)

it's that you destroy the middleman raping consumers and publishers alike.

If you let a friend borrow a game, that's fine, and it should be completely legal, but a corporation should not be allowed to profit off of the used game industry.

It's hurting us all.